Catalpa Worms & Trees

The  Decline  of  the  Great   Catalpa  Tree  and  Worm

I was born in 1947.  My Grandfather was a tobacco farmer outside of the Richmond, VA area.  My earliest memories of his house (3-5 years old) brings back a mighty Catalpa Tree that was in the front yard.  I was about 18, when I last saw it.  I remember on one of its branches, being about 8 inches, there was a porch-type swing held by chains.  I can still hear Grandma fussing about all the worm droppings that would fall on the swing, when the Catalpa Worms were in season and eating the leaves from the tree. 

It was when the worms were about 3” long, they were ready for fishing.  30 to 40 worms were gathered up and placed in small wooden cages made for them.  A few Catalpa Leaves were also placed in with them to keep them happy.  This was the time to go fishing.  This was when you had the best fresh water fishing bait you could find.  One worm could be cut into 3 to 4 sections to make as many pieces of bait.  The worm’s skin is pretty tough, so it is not easy for the fish to just “peck” it off the hook, like they can a cricket.  Fact is, you catch several fish on the same piece of worm bait. 

For 4 decades now, I have still kept Catalpa Trees and Worms in my life.  I, at one time, had over 200 Catalpa Trees, and many, many, crops of worms.  I have studied them quite extensively.  In 2000 I published a book “THE  CATALPA  TREE  AND  THE  CATALPA  WORM”.  I learned much about the Catalpa Worm’s life cycle.  This information was addressed in the book.  For almost two years, I even published a Newsletter “THE  CATALPA  FARMER”.  I stopped publishing this Newsletter for lack of subscribers.

One of the strange things I learned about the Catalpa Worm is that the Catalpa Tree is its only source of food.  I have never seen this worm on any other tree, nor have I ever been able to sustain them on any other types of leaves, or media.  The Catalpa Tree Leaves are the only thing they will eat.  Without Catalpa Trees, you will not have any Catalpa Worms.  If anyone has had any luck with using any other kind of leaves or any other growing media, I would like to hear from them.   I always thought it was important to find something else to raise the worms on, so that people who didn’t have Catalpa Trees could still raise the worms and have them for fishing.  I never was able to solve this problem.

All of my large Catalpa Trees were planted around some fishing ponds I have.  One day, while I was away in town, some sub-contractors working for my power company came by.  I was told by some one who saw them working, that they were spraying trees to kill them.  The next day, I realized that my Catalpa Trees had been sprayed.  Many were not even near any power lines.  I also counted and removed 127 dead fish from the ponds.  They were all small young fish.  Usually when I find dead fish from acid rain, they are large older ones.  I was mad when I realized that their spraying not only killed my fish, but also wiped out my large Catalpa Trees.

I placed a call to complain about it, and it just so happened that the lady I spoke with knew what Catalpa Trees and Worms were.  Her father had raised them.  Her reply was strictly “Company”.  “The trees should have been marked somehow and the spray does not kill fish”.  She was sorry, but there was nothing that could be done.  I guess if they would have paid me a thousand dollars for each tree (about 30), it still would not have fixed anything.  All but one of those trees are now gone. 

It takes about ten years to have a nice tree that can support several hundred worms.  Sometimes you can save a few years by planting “cuttings”.  But from a seed, it takes a good decade to have a really nice large tree.

Cuttings, this is another amazing thing I learned about Catalpa Trees.  Cuttings that are 3 to 4 feet long, or longer, have an incredible 80% survival rate.  They are simply placed about a good foot or more into the ground.  I also strip all leaves off.  Water them daily until new leaves have a good start.  Plant in full sun and in an area that has good drainage.  Sometimes a few look like they have taken, but don’t come back the following year.  That’s the test.  When you see the cutting come back to life the following year, you know you have a new healthy tree.

There are some people who think the worms kill the trees, by eating all the leaves off of it.  From what I have seen, this is not the case.  I have seen trees completely defoliated 3 or 4 times during a single summer.  They always come back.  They always look healthy.  I have tried to understand the possible symbiotic relationship between the worm and the tree.  There surely must be one.  Any other normal tree could not take this, and would die.  Then there is also the large deposit of worm dung from the worms.  Sometimes it completely covers the ground around the tree.  This surely is most beneficial.    

I have seen Catalpa Trees die that never had a worm on them, and never lost any leaves.  Seems to me that “dryness” kills this tree more so than others.  If the Catalpa Tree dries, it dies.  I have even thought that if the trees had their leaves all eaten off during dry season, this would help contain the tree’s moisture, and not lose it all because of the huge surface area produced from its large leaves.   This would let moisture escape at a high rate.  That was the only symbiotic relationship I could ever come up with.  I never could understand why loosing all its leaves, several time in one summer, could be beneficial.

Over the last 15 years, I have observed many problems that the Catalpa Trees and Catalpa Worms, have been going through.  The trees are being cut down in many places to make room fro progress.  When most old Catalpa Farmers pass away, their children sell the land.  The trees are next, to pass away.  I read one time that nearly all the timber that was cut to lay the tracks for the Continental Rail Road……were Catalpa Trees.  This was because of its known ability to last much longer than other wood, and not rot as fast.  I’m  thinking that was a lot of trees to lay track from the East to the West of America. 

So, I guess at one time, Catalpa Trees and Catalpa Worms were very, very, plentiful.  Chinese make beautiful wooden boxes from these trees.  They pay good money for the Catalpa Tree.  Some people came home to find their Catalpa Trees cut off at the ground and missing.  My cousin, several years ago, told me of just a story in Richmond, VA.  It was in the newspaper where these people came home to find all their Catalpa Trees cut down and gone! 

With so more fewer trees, we have so more fewer worms.  Predators also take their toll.  Rain Crows (Yellow Billed Coo-Coo), other birds, wasp, yellow jackets, ambush beetles, ants, and many more, many times wipe out the whole worm population on an entire tree, 500 to 1,000.  The Catalpa Moth (Ceratomia catalpae,  Order Lepidoptera; Family Sphingidae….The Catalpa Sphinx, common hawk or sphinx moth) comes out in the evening to feed and lay her eggs on the tree’s leaves.  If you live in an area where they spray for mosquitoes, this is usually when they spray.  This is not good for the mother moth, or any existing worms on the tree.  So people who live around spraying areas usually don’t have much luck with worm farming.

I would like to start gathering information on the status of Catalpa Trees and Catalpa Worms in America.  I am thinking if they are disappearing, it is happening un-noticed, and I want to bring attention to this area.  They may be approaching “Endangered”.  We should not let anything happen to them.  I want to document their current situation. 

If you have any knowledge concerning the status of Catalpa Trees and Catalpa Worms in you local area, I would like to hear from you.  Please send whatever information you have.  Have trees been cut in your area?  Did there used to be trees?  Did there used to be worms?  Please send what ever information to:

peele@frontier.com (our new email address), floridamycology@cs.com or, FMRC, POB 18105, Pensacola, FL 32523.

If you would like to help with the funding of this program, and help promote Catalpa Trees and Worms in your area, you can send a donation in any amount and request your gift of 5 Catalpa Tree Seeds just recently collected.  Send donation and gift request to the above FMRC address.

Just simply make all donations out to FMRC.  Donations also help keep this important page up and alive.  If you have benefited from this page, and would like to see others benefit as you have, please make out your donation in any amount today.  Its important!  Thank You!

Highest Regards,  Stephen L. Peele, Curator FMRC 

When the Catalpa worm matures and digs into the ground, it changes into the above "Chrysalis".  When the time is right, it emerges and comes out of the ground as the Catalpa Moth and lays her eggs on the underside of  the Catalpa Tree leaf.  The Catalpa Chrysalis can be stored in the fridge for a year or two when kept in something like moist sand.  Best stored in a mason canning jar with a cloth so that it can get air exchange.  It most not be sealed.  It should be checked regularly to ensure it does not dry out.  When the worms are mature, place them in a container that has several inches of dirt.  The worms will go into the dirt and change into the Chrysalis.  It cannot be frozen.  This will kill it.  The Chrysalis is the only stage that can be held for long periods of time.  Some believe that the worms can be frozen, then brought back to life.  This is false.  If the worms are frozen, they will die but can be thawed out to fish with at a later time when fresh worms are not available.

The dreaded "Rain Crow".  Can eat entire worm population on your tree in short order.  This one knocked himself out by flying into a window.  I took him off 100 miles away and let him go.  Photograph by Stephen L. Peele.

 Catalpa Worm

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                Questions and Answers About Catalpa Trees and Worms

I list names and email addresses here so that the people who have interests in Catalpa can contact each other.  If you do not want this information given when making replies to me, please state so and I will not list them.   You can ask me to remove your name and email address at any time.......enjoy.  Stephen L. Peele, Curator FMRC

Subj:   catalpa tree   

Date:   5/26/2011 7:52:20 PM Central Daylight Time      

From:  tam6280@yahoo.com         

To:       floridamycology@cs.com    

CC:     wwheeler@accessatc.net   

A friend of mine suggested I email you....I have a catalpa tree that was my fathers. He passed away 2 years ago from cancer...the only thing I was left or asked for was his favorite tree...I remember as a child pulling those ugly worms off and fishing for bass or some kind of fish... ...GREAT MEMORIES! I transplanted this tree to my home...but have yet to get a worm??? How to I do this...Any help would be appreciated...as this is all I have left of my father...but love it!!! And the memory....Thank you in advance for any advice....

Tammy

Tammy.......the worms appear on the tree when the Catalpa Sphinx Moth lays her eggs on the leaves.  No moths are around to find your tree.  Find a tree that does have worms.  Move 10 to 15 worms on your tree.  When they mature and are about 3 to 4 inches long, they will go down into the ground at night, and bury themselves deep.  They later will emerge as the moths and lay their eggs on your tree.

Highest Regards, Stephen L. Peele, Curator FMRC

Date: 5/10/2011 5:32:59 PM Central Daylight Time
From: douggore1@yahoo.com
To: floridamycology@cs.com

I am from South Carolina Lowcountry. I have used catalpa worms nearly all my life.
I have several trees and have given away many seedlings. Every year, I have so many seedlings that I have to destroy because they are in the way. I enjoy providing seedlings to others and also like to have worms to share with friends.
My big problem is wasps and especially "red wasps". As soon as the eggs hatch, the wasp carry all of them away. I have other wasps and bees. Any suggestions about
controlling these wasps?
Thanks
doug gore
Doug........Yeah, wasps can be a bad problem.  They can't tell the others at their nest where the worms are, but they can keep coming back to the same place.  You can't use any spray as this will also get the worms.  I usually keep a couple of good rubber bands on my wrist.  If I see a wasp come in, I take a rubber band and snap it at them.  This will many times cause them to fall on the ground, if not killed out right.  On the ground, I stomp them to death.  When they get to be too much of a problem, I go out to the tree with a "Red Ryder", a BB gun made by Daisy.  This also allows to just target the wasps and not the worms.  Always be sure to look down range for cars or house windows and the like.  Watch the tree for a good hour to make sure you get all the wasps visiting the tree.  Just after a short while, you can become very good doing this.  Once you have killed all the wasps visiting the tree, it will be a few more days before new ones return.   Thanks for the good question.  I will start posting tips at my website, I will use this one.  Oh, and one more thing about using rubber bands.  Sometimes the wasp will come back at your face when the band snaps back......grin.  The BB gun is best. 
Highest Regards, Stephen L. Peele

Subj: Re: Catalpa trees and worms
Date: 5/8/2011 2:14:06 PM Central Daylight Time
From: campbellfamilynursery@gmail.com
To: FloridaMycology@cs.com

Good to hear back from you, last summer all the worms I saw were free of parasites. However it seems some of the older trees that once had worms according to the owners no longer have them, I do not know the reason for that. One bunch of younger trees say 10 to 12 years old on one property actually got hit by worms twice. First bunch ate all the leaves then after tree leafed out again was hit by a second crop, that is the first time I had knowledge of that happening. We don't see many wild trees here, whether in years past many of the larger trees were cut for timber or fence posts and younger trees did not come back. I'm wondering if once natural burning or prescribed burning helped the Catalpa population as it seems the seed needs full sun to germinate.Kevin Campbell, Campbell Family Nursery
Kevin........  When you speak of parasites, you mean those little elongated white cocoons that appear on the worms?  I sometimes see that.  I did an article on that parasite in one of the past issues of The Catalpa Farmer I used to publish.  I have seen and identified the same parasite on other wild caterpillars.  It is a small wasp looking insect that injects their egg into their skin that causes that.  I gave the species name in the article.  If you ever want to see what they look like, carefully remove some of the cocoons.  Place them in a canning jar.  Instead of the sealing lid, just put a paper towel across the jar, then use the screw band to hold it on.  They will hatch out and you will see them.  I usually just leave them in there until I am sure they are dead....grin.  I also remove every one I see and place them in a jar with a tight lid so they die.  You don't want any of these around for next year. 
To have no worms means that the next year's moths did not return to lay eggs.  Most obvious reason for this, all worms were eaten by predators and none made it in the ground.  I have many times watched an egg clutch waiting for them to hatch.  Go out one morning and every young worm is gone.  It will make you mad.  To have a next year's crop, you must have some of the worms go into the ground and appear as moths the next year.  You never collect all of the worms for fishing.  You must leave some for next year's crop.  You can start your worms again by just placing about 10 worms on your trees, and they mature and go down into the ground.  They usually do this at night.  These will appear as the Catalpa Sphinx Moths the next year and lay their eggs during the night.
The tree itself needs good sun.  I have lost many because their areas became too shady.  They like full sun and good drainage.  The seeds like it warm.  95 F gives best germination.  I will be posting up some of these emails to perhaps alert others to what is going on in  the World Of Catalpas.....
Highest Regards, Stephen L. Peele

Subj:   Catalpa trees and worms    

Date:   5/7/2011 7:07:00 PM Central Daylight Time        

From:  campbellfamilynursery@gmail.com           

To:       floridamycology@cs.com    

I was surfing the net and saw your article on Catalpa trees and worms. I live in the western piedmont of North Carolina near Catawba county and the Catalpa river where the Indian tribe and tree were named. I also am a nurseryman that grows plants native to the southeastern US. I grew up fishing with Catalpa worms and I grow small Catalpa trees to sell to fisherman in my area. Many younger than 40 do not know what the worms and the tree are! If you need some seed next fall let me know I have this years seedlings sprouting now. We do not have many wild Catalpas in this area anymore. There are a few large trees over 100 years old I have found at a couple very old homesteads. Most of the rest have been transplanted by fisherman in the last 40 yrs or so.

Kevin Campbell

Campbell family nursery

118 crater road

Harmony nc 28634

Kevin Campbell, Campbell Family Nursery 

Kevin Campbell..........Thank you for your response and your offer of Catalpa Tree Seeds.  It just so happens, I have plenty of seeds.  You did not mention anything about what the status of the Catalpa Worms were in your said area.  I would like to hear about this.  I am having great troubles with wasp and Rain Crows myself this year.  I am having a little luck transferring worms to secluded trees.  An old timer once told me that he thought the

Rain Crow could smell them out no matter where they were.  I am beginning to think he was right. 

Highest Regards, Stephen L. Peele

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Subj:   Catalpa Trees          

Date:   4/27/2011 2:12:33 PM Central Daylight Time      

From:  charlesdavis@sat-co.net    

To:       floridamycology@cs.com                

I was born in 1942.

 I live in south central Arkansas. I moved here in 1972.

 There use to be an abundance of catalpa trees in this area.

 A few of the old timers and I would use the worms for fishing.

 I've stopped on my way to fish and harvest a few worms on a tree on the side of the road to use as catfish bait.

 I don't see many of the trees anymore. What I do see don't have the worms on them.

 I came upon a few catalpa trees near the Ouachita River at an old lock &dam. I didn't have a shovel with me so I pulled two smaller ones up and brought them home. That was about three years ago.

 I set the two trees out (one in my front yard and one at the back of our house) and they seem to be doing quite well.

 I ran across your very informative article while searching for a way to get worms started on my trees.

 Do you know how to get worms started?

 I have attached pictures of my trees.

 I am a member of the Arbor Day Society but I don't remember seeing Catalpa trees in their catalog.

 I love trees especially the Catalpa.

Charles Davis

 Hampton, Arkansas

 Charles..........Thank you for your message.  I always enjoy talking to people about Catalpa Trees and Worms.  You letter will be placed in our files. 

Yes, there is a way to get the worms on your trees.  You will, however, have to have plenty of leaves and good sized trees to allow this to happen.  A couple trees that are only 2 to 5 feet tall will not be enough.  What happens is, the worms will eat all of the leaves before they reach full size.  This means they cannot go into the ground and change into moths.  They all will die and there will not be a future generation from that crop.

If you had several large trees, you could place worms on them.  As they mature, they go into the ground and come forth the next year as moths, and lay their eggs on the tree, causing the next generation.

Your report of sightings and the lack of worms is now a common occurrence.  Thus indicating that the Catalpa Tree and their worms are becoming endangered as I reported in my article.

Highest Regards, Stephen L. Peele, Curator FMRC 

mudoye@gmail.com

Hello-I have a story much like yours.  My grandparents had two giant Catalpa Trees with those almost mythical black and yellow worms.  My Grandfather died almost 20 years ago and made me promise (when I was then about 17) to keep his property in the family.  Well, long story short a few years ago I bought my aunts and uncles out and purchased along with the property these mythical trees and their worms.  Unfortunately, the property had been overgrown and a mangles mess in the 20 years since my Granddad was living.  My grandmother's Ivy had crawled from the old house and up onto the tree strangling all but its tops.  I had the trees cut down by a professional tree cutter who swears it is the largest Catalpa he has ever seen.  We have counted 150 rings!!!  Yes 150 years old!  They were two huge trees.  I argued much with my husband about it, but I won in insisting the stumps stay put as a monument to my Grandparents and these remaining trees.  Much to my surprise another Catalpa tree has sprung up nearby.  I have also saved all the "string beans" from the former catalpa (thus, I have seeds - I can send you some if you like) AND my trees are starting to grow back from the stumps... they are unstoppable!  To my surprise their worms have returned as well.  In time for season.  They are not as large as when they had an entire 100+ ft tree to consume, but I have seen them and their moths.  I hate worms!  Nevertheless, like you, I believe the Catalpa is a special tree.  Let me know if I can do anything to help- like take pictures or send some seeds.  I am in St.Mary's County MD - just north of Richmond.  Sincerely, Monica

Hello

I have recently started growing a few catalpa worm trees and now have a 8 foot tree with worms on it.  I am thrilled.  A friend gave me a cutting from their tree and it has thrived since I planted it. My problem is ants.  I live in Nashville, Georgia, and the ants seem to want to take over.  Do you have a suggestion to help save my budding worm population?  I am reluctant to use any heavy poisons because I don't want to harm my worms.  Any suggestions would be appreciated.  You can contact me at starblinded@yahoo.com. 

Thanks

Teresa 

Teresa….You do have to be careful when using any poisons or insect sprays around any trees that have worms on them.  Yes, ants, along with many other predators, can be a real problem.  I have seen fire ants grabbing the little worms as they first emerge from their egg.  You can take Vaseline and rub it ALL around the trunk of the tree, about 3 to 4 inches above the ground.  This will set up a barrier so they cannot go up the tree.  Also, make sure no vines touch or grow on the tree.  They will use these many times to get on the tree.  If you find an ant hill close to the tree, I use a little gas just to run them out hoping they move a little further from the tree.  You don’t want to put anything in the ground around the tree because the worms will be going into that ground to change into moths.  The gas seems to clear from the area after a few days.  Some poisons can linger for long periods of time and kill the worms that go into the ground.

For all others away from any trees, I take a good tool iron (use anything to make a deep hole down in the mound’s center, and pour gas down the whole.  Then cover the entire hive.  Do not light to burn.  The killing fumes last longer.  If there are any survivors and you see them making a new hill close by.  Hit them again with the same gas treatment.  Good question.  I will post it at our Catalpa Thread.  Stephen L. Peele